Over six crore EPFO subscribers are expected to see interest for FY20 credited to their account this month. Also, the investment pattern of EPFO will not see any change as of now. In an interview to BusinessLine , Labour Secretary Apurva Chandra discussed a range of issues as he sits down to make rules for the implementation of the labour codes. “We have to simplify things as well as maintain the balance, where the interests of the workers and the employers are both satisfied,” he said. Excerpts:

The Ministry has initiated the rule-making process for the Labour Codes enacted recently. What will be the core message of this process as the base has been laid by law?

Core principles have been laid in the code. So, you can’t go beyond what the law is, but the rule-making is also very important in the sense that the procedure to be followed to give effect to what the law says should also be as simple as possible.

For example, the law may say that a licence is to be given, now whether that licence is to be given after an application is made in 15 days or 30 days? Whether it has to be given automatically? Whether after the expiry of 15 days, it is auto-generated through the website? Those sorts of things come in the rules.

Then there are several other issues that earlier used to be very prescriptive. For example, in a canteen, we would even specify the height of the ceiling — from the floor it should not be less than 1.83 metre. These things, when actually transcribed in the field, become very prescriptive. These sorts of things need to be looked into.

There is a fine balance, because if you don’t prescribe anything, it becomes open to interpretation, and leaves a lot of things to discretion.

But if you are too prescriptive, there may be issues. So, we have to simplify things as well as maintain the balance, where the interests of the workers and the employers are both satisfied.

The provision of liberal policy of hire and fire in case of companies with number of workers less than 300 is causing discomfort among labour groups. How do you want to address this?

One has to look at how the world has moved and whether prescribing a limit itself leads to better outcomes. Because one has to look in the overall context of employment, skill upgradation and output productivity. Flexibility should lead to higher employment, that is my belief. Provision related with government’s consent for hire and fire could lead to many of the companies restricting their numbers or having their employees work informally. It actually leads to informalisation of employment. And the employees are, while doing the same work or may be more, denied the benefits of a permanent worker.

So, the new provision actually leads to more formalisation and better outcomes for the employees.

Has the government arrived at any estimate of job loss during the pandemic?

In the informal sector, especially migrant labour, the unemployment data is very difficult to come by. This can only be through a survey. A migrant labourer could be working in a formal establishment as well as informal establishment. He might be working at a roadside dhaba or can be just a street vendor. So, how many people lost their jobs, or rather livelihoods, is very difficult to estimate. In the formal sector, among those registered in EPFO, concrete numbers are available.

When will EPFO interest for FY2019-20 be credited in the subscriber’s account?

I don’t think there is any problem in EPFO interest credit. Some approvals are to be taken and they are in process. Once approvals are obtained, interest will be credited. I hope interest should be credited some time in November.

Recently, the Finance Ministry notified investment in lower rated debt papers by recognised Provident Funds. There have been demands for change in investment pattern of EPFO. What is the thinking on that?

As I understand, the Central Board of Trustees of EPFO is not in favour of making any change.

When can we expect change in pension limit for EPFO subscribers?

The defined pension of ₹1,000 was also introduced in 2014. If we increase the limit, it will entail additional contribution from the government because the government will have to provide some funds for defined pension irrespective of how much subscriber contributes.